Commenters debate whether Socratic critique has merit beyond generic tech skepticism
1 Sep 21 10:47 PM · 2d ago · 1 article · 2 posts · 11 comments · 3 sources · development 1 of 1
Hacker News users engage with the essay's core argument, with some defending Socrates' concerns as rooted in real cultural differences between oral and written cultures, others dismissing the analogy as a rhetorical dodge.
“Socrates was contrasting the existing Oral culture vs the emerging Literate Culture (Plato), and the _enormous_ social differences between them. i.e not just rejecting new technology because it's new.”
ppsreejithDavid Malki Wondermark authorSocrates Ancient Greek philosopher (subject of essay)
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1 outlet Socrates vs. the Written Word (2011)
first by HN Frontpage, 2d ago
What people said 13 voices · verbatim
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Initially, I thought Socrates' stance on writing was some kind of eccentricity but now that I have seen first hand how the meaning of words can change over time and differ between people and places, I now have a better understanding of how much context is lost in writing.When you said something, back then, the people around you in close proximity…
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Besides, any argument regarding new technologies that starts with "well Socrates was against writing..." is bad because the new technology is not writing. Even if Socrates didn't have any real arguments and was simply hating "because it's new", that would have no connection to whatever technology you're making now. People have hated both good and…
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I don't understand the Ong quote:> Most persons are surprised, and many distressed, to learn that essentially the same objections commonly urged today against computers were urged by Plato in the Phaedrus (274–7) and in the Seventh Letter against writing. Writing, Plato has Socrates say in the Phaedrus, is inhuman, pretending to establish outside…
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The quoted Seventh Letter limits the argument to writing about philosophy, not writing about other things: "There neither is nor ever will be a treatise of mine on the subject. For it does not admit of exposition like other branches of knowledge; but after much converse about the matter itself and a life lived together, suddenly a light, as it…
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It's useful to remember that Socrates was contrasting the existing Oral culture vs the emerging Literate Culture (Plato) , and the _enormous_ social differences between them. i.e not just rejecting new technology because it's new.Unlike Oral cultures where a point of view can be questioned and held accountable, a written version changes these…
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It feels historically vertiginous to see Socrates weigh in on <artificial> <intelligence> , 2000 years ago. [1]"And so it is with written words; you might think they spoke as if they had intelligence, but if you question them, wishing to know about their sayings, they always say only one and the same thing"--[1] Because words are literally…
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Tech today: after over a decade of hypes that either led nowhere or were mainly successful at facilitating frauds or damaging society, we take it personally when people hate our new hyped product.So, we go to Socrates (without really knowing much about the guy other then 1-2 anecdotes) as he is our new hype salvation. Cause it is impossible for…
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> Secondly, humans having evolved in an oral world are used to much greater exertions and development of their memory (eg: recalling and narrating complex oral epics) which writing (and later computers) greatly weakenIn fairness, that is a rejection of the actual technology, not the surrounding culture.But the point about culture of questioning is…
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Well, for someone whose business was giving lectures it's natural to see the written word as a threat and to point out its only flaw (there's nothing more than what's written) instead of its virtues. Business wouldn't be booming as much if everyone could access knowledge at any time, anywhere.
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> hands are wrung that communication will become rife with error and misunderstanding because unlike the telegraph, the newfangled telephone leaves no written record!Well let's not forget that early phone communication quality was ahem not-very-good, so of course errors were an issue.
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It took writers 2400+ years to solve Socrates' UX complaint, we can now talk to previously written text and it's pretty close to the original context. lets hope AI is a bit quicker in solving their own UX complaints.
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> the _enormous_ social differences between them. i.e not just rejecting new technology because it's newIsn't it always like that, every time?
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Socrates deemed writing a 'pharmakon,' a word that can simultaneously mean both a remedy and a poison.
All 1 developments of Wondermark essay explores Socrates' skepticism of written… →
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