Philosophy paper argues materialism logically entails US consciousness
A JSTOR-published argument challenges materialist assumptions by suggesting collective entities like nations could meet consciousness criteria.
What to know
- The paper presents a philosophical argument that materialism—the view that consciousness emerges from physical complexity—logically leads to the conclusion that collective entities like nations possess consciousness.
- The argument forces a trilemma: either accept that large collective systems are conscious, reject materialism, or establish a principled criterion for what qualifies as conscious that excludes such entities.
- Discussion centers less on whether the conclusion is shocking and more on what kind or degree of consciousness would apply to different systems, and whether consciousness requires a particular type of awareness rather than mere system complexity.
The dispute Whether the paper's conclusion is actually counterintuitive or whether it merely exposes that our definitions of consciousness are more permissive than we typically assume. · positions read across 13 posts and comments
Collective consciousness is plausible if we accept materialism; the argument reveals hidden assumptions in how we define consciousness.
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“I'm perfectly happy to believe that the United States has an awareness of itself in the abstract sense that its a complex system with emerging behaviors that are feedbackloops of itself.”
wolframhempel · Hacker News ↗
The real problem is that consciousness means different things in different contexts; we need to specify what the system is conscious of, not just whether it is.
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“The real question for Panpsychism is not whether something is or is not conscious, but conscious of what. If everything is aware, what is this thing we have that a rock doesn't seem to have?”
_alternator_ · Hacker News ↗
Human consciousness is exceptionally special based on demonstrated cognitive achievements; the argument oversimplifies what distinguishes human from non-human consciousness.
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“Humans have put a man on the Moon, whereas we're highly impressed with other animals when they are capable of doing something productive with a twig or make gestures or noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple…”
somenameforme · Hacker News ↗
Eric Schwitzgebel Philosophy paper author
How it unfolded 6 developments, newest first · click a bar or a number to jump articlespostscomments
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Commenter articulates skepticism about consciousness criteria in alien life
Late comment expresses doubt about the argument's assumption that physiologically different alien beings would possess consciousness merely through behavioral similarity to humans.
“You probably also think that conscious experience would be present in a wide range of naturally-evolved alien beings behaviorally very similar to us even if they are physiologically very different—I definitely do not think that.”
— f30e3dfed1c9 -
> The argument in brief is this. If you're a materialistDunno. Suspect I probably am for the purposes here, but not something I think about much.> you probably think that rabbits have conscious experience.I definitely think that.> And you ought to think that.OK, well, thanks, I guess.> you probably also think that conscious experience would be…
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Commenter defends human exceptionalism based on achievement
Response to broader consciousness discussion emphasizes human uniqueness through accomplishment and cognitive capacity relative to other species, arguing this grounds differential consciousness claims.
“Humans have put a man on the Moon, whereas we're highly impressed with other animals when they are capable of doing something productive with a twig or make gestures or noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication.”
— somenameforme -
There's nothing requiring consciousness in one arena to look/feel/be like consciousness in another. The United States could be "conscious," but that doesn't mean it wakes up in the morning and thinks "I need some coffee." Restated, there may be something it is like to be the United States, but that doesn't mean it is anything like what it is to be…
1 more of the top 2 · 3 posts in this stretch
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I think it's more that humans have put a man on the Moon, whereas we're highly impressed with other animals when they are capable of doing something productive with a twig or make gestures or noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication.The point of that is that humans obviously are exceptionally special relative…
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Commenter highlights author's broader challenge to folk psychology
A commenter notes that the paper's author (identified as Eric) consistently challenges conventional psychological assumptions and suggests the argument need not be read as supporting panpsychism per se but rather revealing problems with how we define consciousness.
“The cool thing about Eric and his work is that he consistently challenges "folk psychology" in ways that aren't just doom and gloom.”
— jhickok -
The cool thing about Eric and his work is that he consistently challenges "folk psychology" in ways that aren't just doom and gloom. I think the best way to understand his argument in the paper isn't as supporting panpsychism necessarily since the proliferation of "consciousness" might be because it's cheap and easy to get like an illusionist[0]…
2 more of the top 3 · 5 posts in this stretch
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An onotlogical pivot I experienced in my late teens was recognizing that the taxonomy of life is not some immutable fact that we're uncovering. It's this Sisyphean task of providing structure to something that is everchanging. It's never complete, never correct, but it's often useful. In that way it's a lot like unicode!When thinking about the…
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I'm not clear where the line is between individual agents acting in their own interests, which may involve more or less abstract experiences of cooperation and mutuality, and a direct awareness of self.You don't need something the size of a country to show the problem. If one person starts a business they have an awareness of the business as a…
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Commenters reframe the debate from existence to specificity of consciousness
Discussion shifts focus from whether something is conscious to what it is conscious of. Commenters suggest the real question in panpsychism debates involves specifying the type or object of consciousness rather than its mere presence.
“The real question for Panpsychism is not whether something is or is not conscious, but conscious of what. If everything is aware, what is this thing we have that a rock doesn't seem to have (but LLMs might have)?”
— _alternator_ -
I'm perfectly happy to believe that the United States has an awareness of itself in the abstract sense that its a complex system with emerging behaviors that are feedbackloops of itself. I'm also convinced that all mammals and most sea and air creatures have consciousness in this as well as the more general sense.To me, the fact that an awareness…
2 more of the top 3 · 3 posts in this stretch
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Materialism implies Panpsychism. Not a surprise, but this is put forward in a confrontational way.The real question for Panpsychism is not whether something is or is not conscious, but conscious of what. If everything is aware, what is this thing we have that a rock doesn't seem to have (but LLMs might have)? I'm basically sold on the premise of…
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> something it's like to be youThis phrase comes up a lot in discussions of consciousness and I've never understood it and never seen why it's supposed to encapsulate the idea.It isn't "like" anything to be me. There isn't something else I can compare it to. All I know is that I exist and experience and that there is an aspect of that experience…
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Commenters question whether the conclusion is actually counterintuitive
Early responses in the discussion note skepticism about the framing. One commenter argues the conclusion does not strike them as particularly counterintuitive as presented.
“The author frames this as "either accept this highly counterintuitive result, or take it as a reason to doubt materialism, or find a principled criterion that excludes entities like this" but honestly this doesn't really strike me as highly counterintuitive…”
— robinpie -
The author frames this as "either accept this highly counterintuitive result, or take it as a reason to doubt materialism, or find a principled criterion that excludes entities like this" but honestly this doesn't really strike me as highly counterintuitive
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Paper on US consciousness surfaces on Hacker News
A JSTOR-published academic paper titled "If materialism is true, the United States is probably conscious" was posted to Hacker News, generating 98 comments as of the timestamp. The paper presents a philosophical argument about the implications of materialism for consciousness in collective entities.
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first by HN Frontpage, 5d ago
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What people are saying 1 voices from 1 site · best of 13 · verbatim
- Sep 18
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No individual wrote the Constitution. It was a collective effort. Yet it has features of a work we would expect from a consciousness, such as a view of itself as embedded in a larger historical context. I don't have a hard time seeing that document as a form of speech emitted by a conscious collective. And not knowing exactly how human individual…